Thank you to our sponsor, health Care
Advocates International.
Health Care Advocates International
is a nonprofit health and advocacy
organization dedicated to serving
the needs of the LGBTQ plus community
through prevention programs,
education, advocacy, and treatment.
To learn more about Health Care
Advocate International's mission
and programs, please visit HCI, llc.com.
The views expressed by our guest on
this podcast are not necessarily
those of its sponsors.
Welcome everyone
to this episode of Prideful Connections
where we have conversation
without judgment.
Super excited!
Today we have a very special guest,
Cameron Cameron Celotto,
is our guest today.
Cam say hi. Hi.
The biggest question I have for you,
and the first question I want to ask is,
how do you know my co-host?
I got the great gift of being her child.
Her youngest child,
also a favorite.
I feel like that was sarcastic.
Oh, we're starting off already.
This is great.
So I think this is really cool.
To have you on the show.
You know, we talk a lot about youth,
and we talk to people
who are helping youth,
but we haven't talked to a youth yet.
So do you mind sharing
as much as you're comfortable with?
Just tell us a little bit
about your journey.
Yeah. So, my name is Cameron.
I'm 17, and I came out
as transgender when I was 14.
I came out to my family.
I came out to myself when I was about
in the transition of 12 to 13.
And I.
Yeah.
So how hard was that coming out as trans?
It was.
Yeah, it was really rough.
I grew up in a small kind of town
where everyone is kind of copy
and paste of each other.
So, in, like, the school systems.
So when I reached middle school
to high school,
everyone was everyone kind of stayed
the same.
Everyone still looked how they look.
And so there was very,
very few representation of
anyone.
And I had growing up,
I had never heard of any,
transgender people or anything
other than like, your
gay and lesbian, and that's about it.
No, no, no other
identities or anything.
So, I didn't have a name
to put on
or a more like a label to give myself
until I started hearing about,
the contrary issues in the media.
And I was like, oh, wait.
And so once I was able
to figure it out for myself,
the hardest part was telling.
The the
people around me, because they have
I surround myself
with people who knew me from
the I when I was three years old.
I mean, up and I'm
I have friendships where all like
five year plus friendships.
So I've known them for so long.
And then my family, of course,
who obviously know me since birth.
It was really hard to work up
the courage to come out to everyone.
And what I know of, because I've known you
for a long time now that you you came.
You come from a very loving family.
How hard was it coming out?
And I'm going to ask Sarah
I'm going to ask you a question next.
But how hard was it
to talk to your parents about
who you are and who you needed to be.
It was at first the first thought of
it was really difficult.
But my I knew
I kind of knew
that my mom would be more like,
okay, like, this is what we're doing now,
and it would be a lot more difficult
for my dad.
So my personal fear
with coming out
really stemmed from my dad.
And so I knew when I had, when I,
when it really became
like life or death that I had to come out
because my mental health was so poor.
I knew that I needed to help my mom.
Like, I need to tell her first
because she can help me,
tell the rest of the family. Really?
Because I wasn't too worried
about my brothers.
Because I have two older brothers.
And I wasn't too. I wasn't.
It's nerve wracking coming out to anyone,
regardless of if,
you know, they're going to be like,
oh my gosh, like, I'm so proud of you.
It's still nerve wracking.
And I wasn't super sure on how
my brothers were going to react.
So I was like,
okay, I need to get my mom there first,
because I just kind of knew
that she would be like
like a mama bear kind of protect you.
Yeah. Yeah.
She would.
She knew to like.
Like I was serious.
Yeah. Like like that.
Like, this is something that's been going
on, and, I mean, you kind of sensed it.
My brothers kind of found out
through social media beforehand.
So, like, my family,
they all almost kind of knew before
I said it, but still, you need for me.
I needed to come
out and tell them and say it.
Before I
get to you, because
I do have questions for you as a parent.
Okay.
That was a wonderful response for.
I want you to only share
what you're comfortable sharing.
But you said that you had to come out
because of your mental and wellness.
How how how dark did it get for you?
I had multiple suicide attempts
and I was self-harming constantly.
And I had been through so many treatments.
And we always said like,
what is this like?
Like we got to get to the bottom
of this, like, what is this branch from?
And for the longest time, I was like,
I have no idea.
And for some people it doesn't that
there isn't a branch for it,
but for me, we figured it out.
Because once I started
to, I started with telling a few friends,
very few friends.
I was like, hey, like,
instead of she her, let's
just see she they like, what's that about?
And then once I started
dipping my toes in the water, I.
When did you.
Who who did you like?
Who are you sitting in front of?
Or were you sitting in front of somebody.
Because I had an moment.
For me not knowing the word trans
not having language
you know,
and like you said not seeing anybody.
And I remember it was a documentary
that somebody brought over my house
and I was like
oh my God, I'm trans, you know.
And I was in front of a couple of friends.
Do you remember that moment where
you kind of like, oh, this is who I am?
I didn't really have an like moment.
It kind of was a period of time
where I was like,
because when it first came to my mind,
the possibility of me
being transgender,
I was like, now there's no way.
Let's get rid of that.
Everyone has these thoughts.
And then it was a long time of
everyone has these thoughts to be like,
maybe not everyone has these thoughts,
and then things like shifting my,
wardrobe ever
so slightly to be a little bit
less feminine, to be in, like,
I could see a guy or a girl wearing a.
So let me try this.
And then like over
time, I, I guess there was
a slight
I don't have a specific memory of me
being like, okay, this is it.
It was more just like a progression
of like, okay, I cannot hide this anymore.
Like this is something that is real for me
and this is very real
and I need to educate myself on it.
Before I because I wanted to make sure
I was 100% absolutely certain
before I told anyone else
because it's such a hot topic.
Yeah. So I didn't.
So to answer your question,
I didn't necessarily have like an moment,
but it was like a period of time
that was like,
okay, this leads back to this.
So there's probability
when did you have a therapist or somebody
that kind of helped you along the way?
Come to that being
okay with saying, hey Ma, this is who I am
now. I,
I'm sure I was in therapy at the time.
But I don't love to talk it out
with people.
I like to kind of figure things out
on my own once and then and then, like,
bring it to people and be like,
what do you think of this?
But, like,
by the time I was ready to share
with, like, my mom and stuff,
there was no talking me out of it.
I was not like, mom,
and this might be the case.
I was like, no, like, right.
Yeah.
And I think that that was helpful, to me
because, you
you hate when I say this, but it's like,
is there a blood test?
You know what I mean? Like, I wanted to.
So, so so tell us, like you,
I'm sure you remember the moment. Yes.
Do you mind?
Do you mind sharing that moment
between the two of you is okay
if she shares what happened,
then where you were. Oh, yeah.
I mean, the definitive moment where
Cameron said those words, which were.
Mom, I'm in the wrong body.
He said it right
when I was dropping him off at a program,
and he kind of said
it, and then it was like
he said it and got out of the car.
Yeah. Oh. Hold on. Yes.
So I was like, I need to tell her,
but I don't want to hear her reaction.
Bye. Sorry.
I'm sorry.
I was a lot better,
but I think that was perfect timing.
Yeah. Glad you two are enjoying. Now
sit down. Now sit on that.
I was like, I was like,
hey man, I'm trans now.
I'm going to go to my mental
health program while you process that.
Yeah.
So how how
so how long did you sit in the car?
Well, that week that was a Monday.
On that Saturday,
Cameron and I were sitting on my bed and
I don't know what we were talking about.
It was very much about
you being transgender.
But he didn't say the words.
I, I don't want to say I felt relief
and this is probably the first time
I'm saying this out loud, but I felt like,
oh my gosh, I've been through so much.
And now we have, a reason, right?
And we have, a past that now
we need to take to, to help Cameron and
that was on a Saturday night, Monday.
And, I then had to go straight to work
because he didn't
give me much time of anything.
It was like,
mom, I'm trans, I'm going to there.
You're going to head to work, right?
There was no.
So I went in to work.
I sat out in the parking lot
for for a few minutes.
She went into work at a Catholic church
by the Catholic Church.
Yeah. Really good timing on my part.
Hold on.
Let me write that down in my notes.
And I went into work,
and of course, my mind was just because
as much as
I thought, obviously.
Okay, this makes sense.
I still didn't want it for Cameron.
First and foremost,
I didn't want it for Cameron
because I knew that that was going to be
a very difficult life ahead for him.
And second, to be honest,
I didn't want it for me
because that changed my whole future
of what I had thought
was going to be Cameron's future.
And I have to talk about that, that like,
yeah,
this is
this is what I had expected for Cameron.
Never asking Cameron, but like,
this is what this is,
what's going to happen and blah,
blah, blah.
So I and then I Cameron
I think he forgives me now,
but for a while
he was mad at me because he said
I made him come out to everybody else.
But the reason I did that before you jump
ahead, yeah, is because Cameron
was in so much pain for so long,
and I knew that he had to start.
He had to start his journey,
whatever that look like.
So jump it.
I was
for a bit.
I was annoyed at mom,
like when it first happened.
Because I did feel a little bit
like it wasn't on my term.
Looking back now, I'm very grateful
that she kind of gave the heads up
to my family because,
Specifically like my extended family
and my dad, because,
the reactions were going to be strong,
and I was not mentally strong enough
to handle a negative,
I completely negative reaction
or a spur of the moment reaction.
So, It, it I made it sound
a lot more dramatic than it was.
You really just kind of talk to my
my dad through a little bit before I.
But at in the moment I was like,
I was not ready because I knew
that my dad was going to have
a special kind of reaction.
I was not ready to potentially lose him,
or the relationship I had with him.
And so that's kind of where my,
like, frustration was.
But now I am grateful that you did.
You're welcome. Yeah. Thank you.
Let's just backtrack. Backtrack?
We his. My husband.
Your father was the one that as Cameron
progressed through changing hairstyles,
changing clothes, sexuality, sexuality.
My husband said, you know,
we're going towards transgenderism.
And I was like, really?
I didn't know that.
Oh, yeah, and I was like, no, we're not,
because that's going to be the next thing.
Whether he believed
or not what he was saying, he's like,
that's going to be the next thing.
He's transgender.
Because Cameron kept
coming out with new things,
because he was gently bringing us
to where we needed to be brought.
And that's not that's an unusual story,
but I think there's
a big misconception
that once somebody comes out as trans,
and even
if we're able to live our authentic selves
just a little bit,
that all our mental health issues go away.
Not at all. And not at all.
Not at all. Right.
And I want to talk to you
a little bit about it.
I mean, it's not like I will I don't know
it, but I really want the audience
because you're so brave and being
so vulnerable
to being so open about your suffering.
And I know the reason why you do
that is to help somebody
maybe out there that maybe
is going through the same thing. Right.
So can you talk a little bit
about after you came out?
How much you struggled
and what was the struggle from?
Yeah, yeah.
Well, after coming out as transgender,
it's a huge weight off of your shoulder,
but it's not all of it.
There is still a lot to figure out once
about yourself
about, because once you accept yourself
and are like, okay, I am transgender,
I am this is who I am now.
Picking a name is a very important process
with whether it's independently chosen
or you get family members or friends
or someone to help.
And then you kind of get to like
customize your avatar and being like,
what do I want?
What kind of for me,
what kind of boy do I want to be?
What kind of boy do I want to look like?
And then
the for me, I really struggled with the
okay since I've burdened everyone
with this big coming out.
Coming out as a boy.
Now, I should look and and be
how they want me to look and be like,
okay, I've gotten my part.
I need to, like, be kind to them
and let them because, like,
I'm dressed in dark clothing and stuff
and like, I think your style is fabulous.
Thank you, thank you.
My, I, my brothers,
they both dress in rather light colors,
especially my oldest brother.
Very light colors.
And like,
that's just like little examples of,
you know, how I like how I want to dress.
How I wanted to dress wasn't necessarily
how other people wanted me to dress.
My friends at the time, they were very.
Beachy people.
Very.
I mean, you live on the shoreline.
You know, you get a lot of that.
And I wanted to dress darker
and I'd be a bit then being into things
that my mind has
put a label on as masculine or feminine.
So I could be like, oh, I like this.
And I'm like, no way a guy
wouldn't like this, so I can't like that.
That was kind of tough to choose
between the first time.
And so even after you come out
as transgender,
it does not stop there like that.
It's not the end.
Hormones is a huge thing.
And what that includes is,
if there are some things
that you want to do before hormones
or if you're not done growing,
my doctor was like, if you are not done
growing, do you want to wait on hormones
until you're done growing
and then you get on hormones,
you want to preserve
your eggs. It's really
kind of forces you
to make adult decisions at a
for me at a young age.
Yeah.
You know, it's something because,
you know, not everybody needs hormones
or surgeries, you know.
But how do you know that?
Unless you
you really start thinking about it? Yeah.
And I love the fact that now.
And I know it for a fact, because I'm
looking at you and you're so handsome,
but now you're living and you're
presenting and your gender expression
is yours, not what you expect
everybody else's to be.
But I want to talk a little bit about,
after you come out, you come out as trans,
your family knows, everybody knows.
And I remember
my first conversation with you,
and it wasn't sitting on the beach.
No, no, you were on a gurney in a in a
in a psych emergency room.
I can remember that. Sorry.
I remember that like it was yesterday.
The, the look on your face
when your mom said here's Cameron.
Your energy through that phone,
even though I knew that you were in pain,
you had such a
sweet energy
that, you know, let's talk about that.
Let's talk about the trips
to the psych emergency room and,
and your mom, being there
with you and stuff like that.
When, when I, we had that conversation
and I said to you something like, okay,
what do you need?
And you said, okay,
we're going to get that for you.
Yeah.
Tell me how that felt.
I, I've,
I don't mean for this to be, like,
weird sounding,
but I had never talked to someone
who was transgender,
like, genuinely before talking to you,
even though I knew I was transgender
and mom knew I was transgender
and the family knew I was transgender,
I still had never talked to anyone
that was transgender. Really.
I saw just an insult on social media,
but still, I had an
seen or known of anything other
like transgender.
And so then my mom came to me
and was like, like,
I want you to meet with this person
and be you.
And I was like, okay, I was nervous.
And then
when I started to talk to you, it's
like you could almost finish my sentences,
which I had never experienced
with anyone else before,
because I was still at that time,
I was still
like 95% of me was sure I was trans,
but I was still like, what if?
What if this is just a phase,
as people say?
Yeah, and that.
But that wasn't
because of what I was thinking.
That was because I was like, okay,
I don't want I don't want this.
I don't want like,
I don't want to have to deal with this.
So what if there's a chance there wasn't?
And so talking to you and talking to
someone that understood, like, instantly
gave me a reason to wake up the next day
because I was like, I,
there is a future that I'm a boy,
that there's not
a, there's a future that in people's eyes
I will be a boy, not even necessarily
a trans boy, just a boy.
Because now, you know, I,
I work and I, do things and.
No, no one.
Not everyone, like people who know me,
they like, know my story.
But not everyone knows me
as the trans guy.
I'm just a boy.
And I'm like, oh, that is the
that is the best medicine.
Like, drop the T, right?
Our gender identity is such
a small part of who we are and it doesn't
matter that you're trans. So
you had
maybe a similar thought
the first time you and I talked.
There was a shift in you
from when you first
got on the floor on the zoom call.
I remember you saying to me,
I don't even think your mom said her name,
but she says we're, Catholic
Republican conservatives.
And I almost fell off my chair.
I almost fell off my chair camera.
And I was like,
oh, boy, let's see how this goes.
But it was such a again,
there was an energy about you
and your husband was so.
Not he was so like
disconnected
that he wouldn't even come on camera.
Right.
And my heart broke for him.
Yeah, my heart broke for him.
So talk a little bit about that, like,
because of course, your mama there
and you're going to check out somebody
before they talk to your son for sure.
Yeah, absolutely.
I had I think I said this before I had
somebody
told me about you, but it's like it's
like an under under rail system
finding you, right?
At the time, I had no idea who Tony was.
And somebody told me about you, and so
I never expected you to respond to me
as fast as you did.
And you responded within a day or two,
and so I just didn't.
I had never spoken to a transgender person
that, you know, that that I knew
of, right?
I never met a trans individual nor
I didn't know anything
about the transgender community,
I knew nothing.
So speaking with you helps me.
Every time Cameron would tell me something
like how he hated to shower and
I would say that to you, you'd be like,
yep, that's that's a thing. Or
Cameron wore masks all the time, and
I thought it was just because of Covid.
Right.
And then which at first was
we at first it was, but
then he continuously wore masks,
and it was because he couldn't stand
the feminine features of how he looked.
And I would mention that stuff to you
and you were like, yep, like.
Everything that I couldn't
understand about Cameron, you work.
And you would tell me that
that is absolutely typical of trans youth.
It were a typical of trans community.
So something
I wasn't understanding at all.
You helped me to understand it.
So, and then when Cameron fully
I say fully came out to us
because that's what it was, right?
Fully came out to us
and then ended up in the psych ward
one last time and spoke with you.
And then I said to Cameron,
because we were waiting for a bed to open,
what do you need us to do?
And his whole thing was because
he'd already come out at that point,
but it didn't help with the,
degree of, dysphoria
that he was feeling.
It didn't help with the hatred
that he was feeling.
Looking at himself in the mirror
or anything came at us.
That was great.
But he needed to
to start that whole thing for Cameron
needed to be a process
of a physical change.
And so I promised him that that Monday,
we would make the phone call, and we did.
And you had given me the name of the,
a couple of different places to call,
and I, I started it and then I just
the ball just started rolling,
and I just had one thing to remember,
and that was to keep my child alive
and wanting to have a future for himself.
Yeah.
And one of the things that parents also
need to remember is like,
it's your journey,
their role in your life
is to keep you safe and to love you.
And and I know that a lot of times when
kids come out to their parents and parents
think it's
a new thing, when the kids have been
dealing with it for years, right?
So so when a kid comes out and they're,
they're of age, or they can have,
say cross hormone therapy
and oh my God, they're rushing into it.
They just came out to us six months ago.
But no, actually they've been dealing
with this for for five years.
I know that you said
you want to see, at Anchor Health.
You went to see doctor, Joe and
you were ready
for for testosterone.
I was very ready for, you know,
so how how how just one of you, please.
Like we can all.
For those of us
who have been through this,
you can imagine the energy
and that exam room.
What was it? What was it?
You just relive that for me?
Because I know a lot of times it's.
It's really, a class, you know, the
parents are saying, no, they're not ready.
They're too young. And the kids saying,
I need this.
And in some cases, giving a child
what they need,
even if it's a small dose, will save them.
Yeah, right.
So what was that day like for you?
And you can chime in anytime you want.
It was the day before my 15th birthday,
and we were going to start
Puberty Blockers.
And they were like there was an issue.
And they were like, we don't have
the puberty blocker to start today,
but you can't start testosterone today
right now.
And I was like, yes, done.
And she was like, whoa, wait.
She wasn't trying to stop me.
She was just like,
let's, let's talk for a second.
Let's
think this through. And I was like, no,
I need it like this.
Like I had tried I tried at that point,
so many anti-depressants and,
mood stabilizer medicine and all of that
and some of them have have helped me.
But I was like, if there's one medication,
medications, not medication,
but that I need testosterone
just like this is,
you know, people
call, antidepressant stuff.
They're happy pills. I'm like,
this is my happy juice.
Yeah. And I need this.
And, you know, you start to get choked up
and stuff, but, well,
you were sitting on the bed or chair
or whatever, right?
And I remember when Doctor Kerry said
that and I was like, what?
And I looked at
Cameron, looked at him in his eyes,
and I said, is this what you want?
Are you sure?
And he said, yes. And I said, okay.
And I didn't we weren't
we weren't going to fight about it.
There's nothing.
I mean, I know that's what he needed,
but I needed again,
the selfish part of me,
I needed to take a second to realize that
that was the beginning
of the end of my daughter.
And so I needed to make sure that
that I began to prepare myself for that.
And then by also giving life to my son
Cameron.
Yeah.
You know, I love the way
the two of you say, need that.
You need it. And it's not something
that somebody wants.
No, a lot of parents are like, you know.
Yeah, well,
you know what? I'll just won't.
If you don't do this, I'm going to take
you can have testosterone.
They'll use that
as like a leveraging thing or they'll say,
well, yeah, this is what my kid
wants. It's not what they want.
It's what they need.
And it can really, really for me,
when I started t,
it was I can't barely put this into words,
but there was a feeling
inside of me that felt whole.
Like I was absolutely getting something
in my body that my body needed.
Did you feel any different
besides skipping out of there?
Probably. Did you get
did you get the T that day?
I did that day.
That day I had
I left with it with an already injected.
The nurse had walked me through
step by step on how to do it, and I,
I was so nervous.
I hate needles.
Still to this day, if anyone thinks that
I want to have testosterone,
I don't want to be injecting myself
weekly. I hate that.
Yeah, but that's so strong, so worth it.
She was like.
I was like, can you do it?
Because I was like, my first year.
She was like, no, I don't like I can,
but some killer intramuscular.
Intramuscular really my first time
that I my only two my only
I was given three options originally,
which was intramuscular,
injections gel or patches.
Yeah.
And I was like I think the, the,
the shot makes the most sense.
For me. Yeah.
Because I'm
very sensitive skin and the patches,
this was when they were kind of starting
to, you know, to have less shortage
or less, supply and stuff like that.
So I was like, all right, the,
the injections make more sense.
And it was so nerve wracking. But I,
I, it's
almost like I felt it in, throughout
my whole body like a, like a dopamine
a I was like, oh my gosh.
Like I just felt so
even though I like
this was probably purely in my head,
I'm sure there's no scientific name
for this, but I just felt like it,
like all of the energy that I've been
needing all like everything.
Like as soon as the testosterone entered
my body, I was,
I it cleared a path in my brain
and I was like,
now I'm getting to be who I want to be.
Yeah, it's a big deal.
It's a it's a really big deal
for a lot of people to feel that way.
You know, and, and,
you know,
I have some, some youth that I work with.
I had this one guy years ago
when they they weren't doing
micro doses or anything.
And I begged a doctor to give this kid
a little bit of tea because he was 14.
And I said he won't see until his 16th
birthday just what he will not be alive.
And they did that for him,
and he took his shot on, a Friday night.
I might have mentioned this,
before in one of our shows
the next morning comes into groupings
like, hey, Tony, how's it going?
I'm like, hey, what's up?
Here's like, yeah, I did, last night.
I was like, oh my God,
your voice. I was like, yeah, I know,
listen,
that's how bad this kid needed it.
So what happened to him.
He, he never went back to a psych
hospital.
His parents
put the door back on his bedroom.
The mother got to sleep in her own
bed. Why.
Because we gave this child
what he needed to feel whole and happy
and to keep him alive.
You know,
and and it's a patient to patient thing,
but a lot of changes start happening,
you know?
Right.
Do you remember, like,
the first thing that started changing for
you and like, how it made you feel? Yes.
Body hair.
I, my body hair
started becoming darker
and just more of it.
And I was like, cool.
And this is great.
Yeah.
Because like, I grew up, my, my best
friend was a boy and I have two brothers.
And then obviously my dad
and my mom was there, but,
I mainly like I was surrounded by boys.
I was like, I was like, oh my God, I'm
my body's doing what they're doing.
Like, you guys see this like little twins
now, now the voice,
because I remember you be 40
and I can hear you
now that your voice really deepened.
Oh my God. Yeah. Dropped.
I mean, that's that's something for me.
It's like.
It's really.
It's such a like
if I don't see somebody like what?
After
they start to for a really long time,
and then they'll call me or I'll see them
and their voice drops because I know
for a lot of trans people are will listen.
Our voices are something
we have to use. Yeah.
And if it doesn't match how we feel,
it should sound.
It can be very dysphoric, right? For sure.
So the voice is a big deal.
Do you remember?
Do you remember the first time
somebody sent you?
Oh, my God, your voice is changing. Yes.
My grandmother, she,
Because we see them semi often,
but long enough
that while I was really going through
like the peak of my voice dropping,
every time I would call her or
she would come up, she'd be like, Cameron,
your voice just keeps dropping
more and more and I think you could.
Yeah. And my mother used to say,
well, you got a cold.
Do you have a cold?
What's going on? Have go. Yeah.
How was it for you to see these changes
happening?
It was, I mean, this one.
He was so happy.
Every time we were out
and somebody would say sir to him
if we would go to the dinner. Oh,
he. You can.
What can I get for you, sir?
And actually, initially when he didn't
get that and he would get the misgendered,
I was always like,
oh gosh, I just felt so bad.
And then it got to the point where an a
waiter or waitress would come up to him
and I'd be like,
okay, please, please, please, please.
And they're like, okay, sir,
what can I get for you?
And like, oh my gosh, I just felt so good
because I knew what it meant to him.
And one of the things
that Cameron explained
that to me was as far as misgendering,
he's like, what if somebody kept
referring to you as he.
Yeah.
And I was like, well,
why would they refer to me as he,
you know, so
but I would he's like, wouldn't
you correct them?
I said, of course. Yeah, I'd say,
you mean she.
So when he started explaining it to me
in those simple terms,
like of what if it was me that they were,
what if somebody was misgendering me
or using a wrong name with me?
How that would feel?
It made it a little easier
to understand what he was going through.
Yeah, it's like that whole thing, like,
put yourself in their in
somebody else's shoes and you know,
you don't know what it feels like
until you start thinking about,
you know, like a lot of people don't think
it matters. Like, how can you be that?
I remember at the beginning
of my transition,
if I was misgendered, say, at breakfast
and you can ask my ex,
it would ruin my whole day.
I would not be.
Well, I'd be sad.
And this was, you know, it.
This was a long, long time.
It was horrible. Horrible. Yeah.
And until she put herself in my shoes,
then she was like, oh, wait a minute.
It must be very painful.
You know, over and over again.
So that was a good thing.
Yeah.
The one thing that I wanted
to, to just talk about was
the fact that you did not like you
grew up with, like, in baby dolls, right?
And dancer.
So how I know that
that can be something that do you find
interesting?
An interesting topic to discuss. Yeah.
That's one of the things that's like
there are signs you can look for
for someone being transgender,
but there doesn't have to be.
Growing up,
I never really thought about gender,
so I did not have an awakening moment
at five years old where I preferred
playing with cars instead of Barbie dolls.
I didn't have those types of moments.
I didn't think about my gender
until puberty hit,
which I know for some people, they,
at the ripe age of four years old, they
as soon as they can speak, they say that
they're in the wrong body or something.
I never had that moment.
And it took me a while to realize that
that doesn't make me less transgender,
less or more like one way or another.
But from what I growing up,
I was perfectly happy being a girl.
A girl, because there wasn't
much of a difference to me.
I mean, in elementary school, I had long
hair and my best friend had short hair.
That's the only difference.
There were nothing.
I was not thinking of anything else.
And, yeah,
my interests, there were some interests
or, like,
something I had to get in my nails, done.
Makeup. I hated dresses and stuff.
But that doesn't mean you're transgender.
There are plenty of girls
who don't like that.
But when I think back to some of the times
where you had some things.
So I, So, as you know about me, Tony,
I like to head up things.
Start things up. What?
Volunteer.
So I headed up a, sweetheart dance
when we were in elementary school,
and it was mainly for,
fathers and daughters.
And Camryn came to the first one
and then was,
like, sick and never came again.
And the subsequent years.
And then for his first communion,
obviously, he was all dolled up
in the first communion dress and his hair.
We had got his hair done that day and the
curls and stuff and again ended up sick.
And I it's maybe silly
for me to think about those,
but those are big moments in your life
where you were very feminine
and it didn't sit right with you.
The first time I was did I did a dance
performance in The Nutcracker.
Yeah, but Mohegan Sun, after The
Nutcracker got off the stage and a fever.
Yeah. And I was interesting.
Yeah, well, I think a lot of people think
that, you know,
you have to play
with the opposite genders.
So it was.
Listen, toys aren't
shouldn't be gendered anyway. So.
And your gender identity is in your brain
nowhere else.
It's your it's
your internal thought of the male female.
Something else. Both or neither.
It doesn't matter if you played with dolls
when you were younger,
it doesn't mean you're not trans.
I mean, that's like, that's what people
that's what people think.
Like, oh, wait a minute.
I have friends of mine
who are trans men who wore dresses
and were very comfortable
at that time in their life.
Then they're they're not.
And some of them are identified
as trans men, and they still wear dresses
and stuff like that.
Your gender expression is different
than your gender identity.
Exactly.
But as a parent, I would have to say
I'll have this.
I would like to say that as a parent,
it was it would have helped me
if I could know that this was
definitely something
that was there from birth.
Right? Because then,
it showing up at puberty and I've been
doing a lot of research, obviously.
So I know that that is typical.
Not that it showed up as puberty,
but it really.
Yeah, comes out during puberty.
It could be there's
and you had an eating disorder
at that time because
you, in my opinion, were very much
trying to stop that feminine body
from coming.
Right.
So, I think you not eating and,
it just sort of slowed
the development of everything.
Yeah. So.
But if, if you had, if, if I was able
to look back and say, oh yeah, well,
yeah, now that I think of it,
you know, they never like to play
with typical girl stuff
or they never like to wear a dress
or they never like, you know, at least
I was like, I would think that,
okay, okay, this is the right thing.
And it and it's not whether it was right
or wrong for Cameron, it was,
am I making the right
or wrong decisions for Cameron?
My husband and I would have really loved
to be able to wait till Cameron was 18,
so that we could take no blame or fault.
God forbid anything went wrong
or you had any regrets.
But of course, that's not the reality.
There was no way we were suffer.
There's no way more years.
Exactly.
But as a parent,
I was responsible for every decision
that I was making on his behalf.
Right. And I knew what he needed.
He knew.
He told me what he needed,
but it was still terrifying.
And then, of course, as you both know,
I was going down the wrong end of TikTok
on the wrong side of YouTube.
And so I was seeing all of this terrible,
awful stuff.
I remember,
one of the one time we were in the car
driving, I remember,
and you said that thing about like,
I wish there was like a blood test,
and I was almost yelling at her.
I am right here telling you.
Yeah, why is that not good enough?
And I didn't I could not understand,
like the parent worry,
the parent guilt because in my mind,
why would I ever blame them for it?
I didn't know that there are stories
circling of detransition
or blaming blaming parents and providers.
Yeah, providers.
I had no idea. So I was like, why?
Why would she think that?
Like that's ridiculous. But it's not.
No, I mean, it's a real
and I've heard of that.
And I'm like, okay,
at the moment that your parent, parents
or parent was making that decision
that you said you needed something
to keep you mentally well, so you and your
life and they gave it to you?
I don't know how they can blame that.
And again, let's talk about this.
It's less than 1% of the community.
It's a very, very, very small number.
The problem again is that they're louder.
They're louder than people who have
transitioned and like me and you and.
Okay, we're cool. You know,
maybe we do a little advocacy stuff.
Yeah, we have a podcast. Whatever.
But blend in with the crowd.
Yeah, exactly.
But we're not screaming, right?
That, hey, I'm trans, I'm trans.
They're screaming, what did you do to me?
So there's a very low, low number. Yeah.
But I also remember saying
that, telling Cameron about that.
And, and he was like, take responsibility
for your actions, right.
Talking about. Absolutely.
These people who were saying
that my parents did this
and my the provider did that and did it,
I will take some responsibility.
Yeah. Like you were a five year old.
They were trying to listen to you.
Yeah.
And I did say it and I and I feel bad
for saying this and I think about a lot.
But I did say to you,
I should assure you, I probably forgot it.
Please don't blame us.
Oh, yeah. Thank for your time.
Because I was like,
what if in ten years time,
Cameron turns around and says, this is
this is wrong.
And I remember saying to him, understand,
as a parent
that I had no choice
because my whole goal was to keep you.
I was just going to say,
I think I would be grateful that ten years
later, ten years later, he, you know,
I mean, like, yeah,
he was still with us, still left
because it did get very, very dark.
And so does one of his first TikToks
that he posted was,
you remember your first TikTok?
I was you as a man and then you as a boy,
and then you was a girl wonder.
Yeah.
So I have this, TikTok account,
which probably by the time
this is out, the app is banned.
But I have about 12,000
followers on it,
where I just post about being trans.
And one of the first things
was pretty dark.
This was when I was like
and going through it, yeah, my life
as a boy, and it was pictures
from Pinterest and stuff of like,
what kind of life I wanted to live
as a boy and then life as a girl.
And it was a picture of a coffin
in a graveyard.
Yeah.
And that got quite a bit of attention.
Luckily,
attention
by other trans people that I understood.
Yeah.
Now I get a considerable amount of hate
from people who don't understand,
which I cannot get.
It is the funny.
I don't read the comments.
It is the funniest.
I usually just turn off the comments,
but it's it's like I, it's genuinely
the funniest thing to me.
But I was like, but people were like,
yeah, me too.
Like, oh my gosh. Like,
this is exactly how I think.
And I was like,
I found my people, you know, in something
because the two of you said that.
Well, for what?
You know, I was the first trans person
that you ever spoke to, right.
Okay.
And I think it's really cool.
I want to talk a little bit about Alex
Sink,
and I want to talk a little bit
about your advocacy work now, because
the two of you that came from a place of
what the hell does this mean,
to become
such a big part of this community?
I mean, let's talk a little bit about,
the pride that you started.
I won't mention the town unless you want
to, but, talk a little bit.
About what?
What drew you?
I mean, listen, you did well, mom, right?
You did well, and so did you, by the way.
I know it was really hard,
but. You okay? Your mama bear.
You got your kid going.
He's on everything
he needs. He's being himself.
He's dressing
really cool. He's got nice glasses.
He's happy.
He's living his life.
Most parents would say,
okay, now it's time for me to rest
now, don't you?
Yeah. Not you.
Well, so talk a little bit about that
because I was, I
he I was able to give him what he needed.
We were able to give him what he needed,
both financially
and emotionally and mentally.
But there's so
many other kids out there
that don't have that.
And then there's so many other people
in the LGBTQ community
that don't feel that love and support that
Cameron feels, for the most part,
by the people that are surrounding him.
And I,
I'm the type of to look past my own child,
whereas I know
a lot of people would say, okay,
my child has done great.
I'm, I'm,
I don't need to do anything else.
But I looked past Cameron to the fact
that there was other people
in that community who were struggling
and having a difficult time,
and in the town that we lived in
or that we live in.
It does seem like a great town.
It doesn't.
It does seem like it would be a affirming.
But as I heard stories coming from Cameron
about the some of the hate
that he was getting from his own peers
who knew him pre transition,
I realize that that was coming from
from somewhere.
Most these kids
don't just make up this stuff or brick
like it's coming from somewhere. So,
I began to see some posts
on some of our Facebook things,
and I could see that
there was definitely some,
hatred and misconceptions
and misguide ins out there.
So I decided, why wouldn't we do
a pride event in our town?
Many surrounding towns were doing it.
Our little town was in need
of some serious education.
Yeah, it was, and it still is.
And I remember and,
so our first year was fantastic.
Our second year was it just rained, but
but it was still fantastic.
It was fantastic.
But it rained a lot.
Fantastic in the rain.
And yes, that was also the year
that we put a, pride flag up
for the first time that I know of.
And then we painted, crosswalk.
It's all had colors.
And I remember Cameron not being there,
and I and I called,
I took a picture of both of them,
and I sent them to him, and I.
I'll never forget saying this.
I said to them I wasn't there
because it was on my birthday right?
I wasn't not there for no reason. Right.
And I said to him, I can.
I can't help but think that seeing these
as you grew up,
meaning the flag and the crosswalk
would have made things a lot easier.
And he said, you're absolutely right.
Yeah.
Let's just add that if it wasn't for you,
this is pride and the crosswalk and
the pride flag would never have happened.
Not at least not that we know of,
because nobody else ever took the
initiative in that town to do something.
And the only reason why it was done is
because your mother was inspired by you.
Yeah. I mean, really,
I'm not trying to be on my list.
I don't blow smoke, as you know,
but that's the
that's the reality of the chain of this,
is that you're.
And sometimes, you know, when I think back
and I go back into my
sometimes I still have dark moments,
you know,
but then I start thinking about things
that since I transitioned,
what I've done for the community.
I want you to know, dude,
this is a big deal.
Now, let's talk about Allen.
Think, because I think you're the who's
who's on the you're on the board
or you're the president of the board.
What are you, president
and the vice president.
Vice president of the board.
So Alex Ink basically came up because,
the pride event that we were doing,
I needed a sponsor.
And I was like, okay, well, why don't
I start a nonprofit organization?
Why not?
Why not?
Between
and in between cooking meals for my kids
and the
Catholic Church that I was working
and the Catholic Church.
So Alex's acceptance,
love, equality in the nations.
And it's just I love that
Alex is also Cameron's middle name.
Oh yes, I was I was going with Alex
was one of my options that I was going
when I was trying to pick my first name.
And I ended up going with Cameron,
but then we were like
what about a middle name and Alex?
It's just such a great thing
to make an acronym out of.
So yeah, like, yeah, definitely.
I couldn't
figure out what to do with the ex
this one founds Ignatius
and there's been people that have argued,
tried to argue with me about it,
and I was like, just look up the meaning.
All it means is eager to learn, eager
for change.
Who argues about
because they're like, oh, yeah,
I don't really care that
you've never heard of the word before.
This is great education. Yeah, that's
why we used it.
People are like, what about xylophone?
And I'm like, no.
So I yeah, I am and was eager
to learn and eager for change.
So Alex's was perfect.
Now we, used Alex,
to pay for our obviously
to help get sponsors for our first game,
for our first pride event.
And then we did a queer prom,
we did our second pride event
and our second queer prom.
And now we have developed a program
that I'm very excited about.
And this is a financial program to help
families of transgender with transgender
youth or just young adults, trans
young adults that need financial help.
So we have it out there where they can
apply for financial help from Alex.
And, I'm in the middle
of getting different, grants
and getting money from,
companies and organizations
that want to help us with that.
So really, really excited about that.
So that's that's what we do.
And then Cameron and I,
we just both wrote letters
about Proud Academy that's possibly going
to be coming up in Connecticut.
So we both love letters.
And then, you've done a couple of things,
but yeah.
So so first of all,
you've done a lot in the few years
that you've been doing this.
And I can tell you, I was I was involved,
I was on the committee
for the first, pride.
It was an amazing, amazing event.
And you're a really good leader.
You definitely are very organized.
I think that's what's driven you to
where you are today is your organization.
And you're just.
You're so goal driven, right?
Alex, think, the grants that you'll be
giving out will be life saving.
Yeah, it will be.
You know, it's just we know that
when people have access to the care
that they need or things that they need,
they we live with just live longer.
Right.
But you, my friends, are starting to do
some, some keynotes and,
you know, stuff like that.
What what's drawn you to be like?
You don't listen.
You don't have to be out there.
Oh I know, yeah, right.
But you have made this a choice because
it is a choice to be about as trans.
And it's a choice to be, for some of us,
it is a choice.
For some of us, the reason I'm humbled
that it's a choice for me.
So what's what's bringing you down
this route of, training and speaking?
I just think I have a lot to
say, and, it is.
It's really my family.
My whole journey with my family is proof
on how far our education goes.
Because growing up, we
were not the most accepting of everyone.
Family.
And, you know, conservative,
Republican, Catholic.
Yeah.
So,
to come from a family who
said, I don't know how I could handle
or I don't know what I would do
if my child came out as transgender.
That was me. To
then taking that as a challenge
and being like, thank you, camera.
Yeah.
Like I watch this.
Yeah, yeah.
It shows
that people are capable of change.
Yeah.
Then I mean, everyone always says
people are going to change.
People are not going to change.
People do change.
And I think when we have conversations
and like, that's why this podcast,
this conversation has no judgment.
And when we can sit down at a table
and agree to disagree but don't.
And we also
but we do agree not to hurt or hate people
because they have different views.
As I say,
it goes a really, really long way.
Very really long way. Yeah.
And it's also very important
to show the people who are not
as educated that there are spaces
where you they may like.
It's important to talk to them
without making it an argument, making it,
yelling at them,
saying that you're wrong. You're wrong.
And it being inside
and letting them on what it really is.
Because I social media, with social media
and media in general,
everything could be so confusing
for someone who it isn't in their life.
Yeah, like like their child
or a immediate family member.
It could be very confusing
and it makes sense.
So to provide a space where
they might
not know how to ask the question
in the nicest way possible,
but that they could let them ask it.
Yeah, we can be like,
hey, don't wear it like that.
But yeah,
because conversation is information
not not like
it doesn't have to be confrontational.
Exactly.
You know,
and something that was told to me before
I did my first speaking gig,
it was actually my ex-girlfriend Kristen.
I'll give her credit.
I was very nervous,
you know, I mean, I, I,
I said yes before I said how many people
and there was 300 people in the audience.
I was sitting on a panel and I was like,
oh my God.
And then somebody said to me,
wait a minute, what are you talking about?
And I said, I'm sorry.
I'm talking about my journey.
And they were like, well,
there's not an answer.
You're not going to know
that there's not a question
you're not going to know the answer to.
Which really helped me, mentally.
But Kristen said to me, Tony,
now remember, this was way back in the day
20 years ago.
She says, not
everybody knows a trans person.
And it's up to you when you're standing
in front of these people,
you are representing every trans person.
You can be a jerk, and they're going
to think every trans person is a jerk.
Or you can be cool and kind,
and they're going to think
that every trans person is cool and kind,
and every time before I get on stage,
I think about the same thing
because people are getting louder
with the hate and I have to stay here.
I will not go to a space where they are,
even if they're yelling at me
in front of 1200 people,
it's just not my place.
So maybe
that was a little mentoring moment for you
that you know, when you are standing
in front of people
representing the community, we've just
and you're a you're listen,
you want a speaker.
How can how can people reach out to you?
If you go on to the Alex website,
and you go into about there are
I am on the website and my email is listed
right underneath there.
Okay. So it's Alex.
What's the
what's the Alex Hyphen Inc talk okay.
Alex Hyphen Inc dawg.
Check out the website.
So important.
So we talked about a lot of heavy stuff.
We're about school.
Yeah, that's what I was gonna talk about.
So when I talk about school, I talk about
there is a big like
a lot of people talk about it like sidebar
and nobody really talks about it. But
when, when a trans and non-binary student
comes out at school
and says to the school, hey,
I want you to call me Tony,
and he and the school usually says,
okay, does your parents know?
And sometimes I don't says,
no and I don't want them to know.
There's a lot of controversy
around that because parents think
they should know about it no matter what.
You know, why are you keeping that.
That's a big part of my kid. Right.
Did you experience that firsthand
or can you just speak to the importance
if you think it's important that schools
kind of honor that for a kiddo?
Absolutely.
I personally did not,
come out in school
before I came out to my parents.
However,
I did come out in different environments
before I came out to my parents.
And there are
1,000,001 reasons
why someone would do that.
And I think it's better to
if they say, don't tell my parents
to leave it at that,
because it could be like for me,
because I wanted to figure it out first
before I tell them.
Or it could be a much worse situation,
that it could be potentially dangerous
for the person physically and emotionally.
Emotionally.
So I,
I think that,
it's unfortunate
that it's such a hot topic, but
now the no one knows the
the families better than the kids do.
And so if they're like,
please do not tell my family,
because if they find out
I cannot go to a safe home,
then you're really
that decision is in your hands
for the kid on whether or not
they are going to be safe from now on.
Yeah, and sometimes it's not even it's
I think safety is the number one reason.
But there's also like a lot of kids
don't want to disappoint their parents.
They want,
they want to test the waters out
before they tell their parents
that this is who I am.
Now I'm just going to turn
it over to mom. Absolutely.
So talk
to me about how you feel about that.
It's as for me
personally, for you personally,
very difficult
because I want to know everything
about my children
before anybody else does.
Anytime
I would bring my child to childhood
to go to a doctor's appointment
or the hospital, I was one of the
bringing them, not my husband, because I
wanted to be their front line, front line.
And that's as you can see, that's who I am
still today, still today.
So yeah,
you'll be for the rest of your life.
Yes, yes.
So I would have been very upset
if I received emails that, or.
Yeah, that had, you know, accidentally
used a preferred name for camera.
Well, this is what typically happens
in schools, right?
Kids don't tell my parents.
And then the the next question
they should ask is,
what do you want me to call you
that hear you.
And, you know, sometimes it's just
they just want to be called that name
and pronoun with that specific person.
But if they say, yeah,
I want you to call me Tony.
And and he and him in class,
then also a classmate will go home
and say to their parents, oh my God, so
and so now they're calling him Tony,
and he and the,
the parent, one of the parents will say,
excuse me, baby Tony's parents.
Hey, you know,
they're calling your kid at school.
It's been a very,
very upsetting situation for me
because that's
that's typically what happens.
That kind of did happen to you, though.
That happened to me. Yeah.
Well, yes, because I was in residential
and I was
and that later in my parents left
and they brought me into their office
and they were like, what's your name?
And they're like,
you have a preferred name.
And I was like, actually, yes,
because no one there knew me, obviously.
And then she got a call from a nurse
sometime that week, and she was
and they were like,
blah, blah, blah, Cameron.
And she was like, who?
And they weren't allowed to talk to me
for the first week.
So then I finally, I, I once I was able
to talk to them, I was like, so Cameron.
Yeah.
So I wasn't obviously
Cameron was in residential,
so obviously there was a lot of stuff
going on, but it was
it was hard to think that
these, this,
these people that didn't know us
at all knew something about my child
that I didn't know.
Yeah, right.
And was using a preferred name by him
that I wasn't privy to.
So it's really about,
like, your feelings about it, like.
Yeah, everything's
about my feelings about it then. Right.
And then, like, I get to, I get to get
over myself, which is what happens.
But I also realize as and Cameron realizes
this now,
that I would never have turned
Cameron away no matter what.
Yeah.
And so, if I,
he would have had a safe family
to come home to.
He just didn't want to disappoint
us. Right.
And I think that, thank God
and thank Buddha
and thank everybody that Cameron's
in a really good emotional space
right now.
But when a kid is in a dark space
and suffering, they don't
they they really it's a hard time
trusting anyone.
Like how my parents
are going to react to it especially.
But what I just, I would I
the only thing I want to say about this
because I, you know,
I work with a lot of kids is that
we have to we have to trust that
that child
is not telling their parents for a reason,
whatever reason it is.
And it's not to piss anybody off either.
It's not the parents offer, you know,
go against, you know, the family.
It's just where they're sitting
at the moment.
They don't feel comfortable doing that.
And I really encourage,
people to trust that
they know who who they want to tell
and who they don't want to tell.
And I the more I've thought about it,
obviously over the years,
I can understand the outrage
that some of these parents feel
when they find out they are not.
The other people know stuff
about their child before they do.
At the end of the day,
it's a name and a pronoun. Yeah.
So it doesn't really matter, right?
This whole thing of a child going in
one sex and coming out another sex.
Yeah. Doesn't happen. Does not happen.
It doesn't.
I don't think
it's happening in the schools
is a change of name or pronoun.
Yeah.
And if that's what that child needs
for whatever reason, you just do it.
Yeah. Okay.
So so we're going to wrap it up because
we're running out of time unfortunately.
But Cameron
listen you're going to come back right.
Absolutely. Okay. Cool.
And maybe someday if I,
if I'm sick and I can't make the podcast,
you just sit in for me sometimes
that sound. Yeah, I see I hear
they're already trying to get rid of me.
Okay. It's what?
The fourth episode.
Fifth episode. It's okay. I'm used to it.
They pick on me all the time.
So listen, everybody,
thank you for joining us.
We can't wait to see you next time.
See you later.
This episode is brought to you
by Alex Incorporated.
Alex is a nonprofit organization
dedicated to creating
a safe, compassionate community
while empowering LGBT, Q plus youth,
families, and allies through educational,
emotional, and financial support.
We hold annual events to raise funds
in support of these goals.
Visit Alex Inc Dawg for more information.
