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Welcome to Prideful Connections, where
we have conversations without judgment.
Today, I am proud
and honored to have Riley with us.
And, just to give you a little bit
of a background of for Riley and I,
I, maybe about a almost a year ago
was struggling with my faith
and the church that I go to.
And I had gone into Riley's church
and realized
that that was definitely the place for me.
And then Riley and I had coffee.
Do you remember that? Yeah.
And that's how I got to know you. Yeah.
So welcome.
Thank you.
Thank you for being here.
Glad to be. Here.
And I'm Tony is going to be good today.
Right, Tony? No.
Yeah, that was Riley. Now welcome.
Thank you. Super happy to see you.
So to the degree that you're comfortable.
Yeah.
Would you like to tell us a bit
about your journey, about your story,
about how you felt, how you discovered
that you maybe a little unsure
or uncomfortable?
Yeah. Yeah.
So it's it's a really strange
sort of story.
At least I think it's strange.
It might be totally normal.
It's not like,
you know, we bring this up at, you know,
cocktail parties and, like, how did you
how did you figure out that you're queer?
Although
sometimes that does happen, but,
so I grew up in the Midwest,
in southwest Michigan,
and in, in the 80s and 90s,
and I was always a tomboy.
I, I have an older brother,
but we weren't particularly close.
And as I grew up,
I felt like I was really bad
at being a girl.
Like, there were things about being a girl
that I just didn't identify with.
Particularly, like makeup fashion.
Some of that was being in a bigger body,
but some of that was just being clueless.
And a really formative memory
that I have is I was at a sleepover
and we were watching Never Been Kissed.
And there's this big scene at the end
where Drew Barrymore
and the guy, the male love interest,
like, run onto the baseball
field and like, they have this, like,
climactic kiss at the end of the movie.
And my friends kept, like, rewinding
that scene and watching it and swooning.
And I was sitting there going, what?
The actual I what are
what is what is fun about this?
And, and
growing up where and when I grew up,
I was definitely,
a James Dobson raised kid.
Focus on the family.
I don't know, can I say those names?
On the page, say whatever you want.
Okay.
And that particular
brand of conservativism,
really reinforced,
traditional stereotypical gender roles.
And, was very skeptical of homosexuality
and, really demonized and villainized.
You know, you struggled
with your sexuality.
You didn't you didn't like. You weren't.
There was no such thing
as, like, having pride.
And I didn't know anyone who was queer
until I was in high school.
And one of my brother's
best friends, came out,
and she stood up on their wedding,
and she was sort of the first
gay, lesbian person that my family knew.
And so I paid really close attention
to how my parents talked about her.
And so when I came out,
when I was in my late 20s,
I was about to be ordained
into the ministry,
and I wanted to give my parents,
their full
like I wanted
to give them informed consent,
whether or not they were going to support
their queer minister kid.
And so I wrote them a
letter because I'm chicken.
And, I try folded the letter
and put a sticky note,
on the outside of the trifold
that said, you
might want to sit down for this, like,
ever that dramatic, right?
And, so rightly.
Yeah.
And, you know, when my mom called me,
she's like, we thought you had cancer.
Like, but
it's actually probably very smart
that you did it that way.
Yeah.
And she's like, you know, some of the
puzzle pieces are falling together for me.
And I showed your dad and he said,
you know, doesn't make a whole lot
of a difference to him.
And I had no idea how
they were going to react in my.
And I had talked to my cousin and
my brother about coming out ahead of time.
And their advice was,
make sure you're financially independent
because we had no idea.
Not a bad piece of advice.
Yeah, yeah. But I was ordained.
I remember having conversations
with the leader of my local church
group and saying,
you know, we need to problem solve
because I'm gay and this denomination
is really struggling with whether or not
to include queer folks.
And there's and they're still
at this point, struggling with that.
And her immediate reaction was,
are you sure you don't want to go
join a different church
that's already had this figured out?
And I think that came from a place
of wanting to keep me safe.
But it also told me like,
oh, you're not going to fight for me.
And so I was I eventually shifted
denominations
into the United Church of Christ, who has
had a
place
set on the table for me for a long time.
And this is not new to them.
So when I, I was in my second ministry
setting in upstate New York, out
married to a woman.
Really, supported me.
Riley is, my last name
when I was born,
and so I was going by Riley.
Like, one name, like Cher or Madonna.
Like, people just forgot what my first
name was, which is was delightful.
Went through a divorce.
The church was great through my divorce.
Little old church
ladies threw me a divorce shower. Wow.
Because I had, like, lost all of my linens
and all of my kitchenware.
And the divorce.
And so I got, like, towels and pots
and pans from little church.
Like,
they had me register like it was the best.
That's awesome.
It was so. Hard. That was. So sweet.
And, got remarried
and I.
I lost that job.
And that's that's a whole sort of
traumatic story that's unrelated to this.
But in that job I had identified
as trans or part of the trans community
from the pulpit.
And then two weeks later, I lost that job.
And those two things are not related.
I did not lose that job
because I identified as non-binary trans.
But in my mind,
those two things are connected.
Right.
And as I started to understand my gender
and move away from the name
I was born with and, and getting married
gave me a last name.
So I stopped being share and,
you know, Riley.
And then taking my wife's name, Paige,
really helped, but, I,
I was in seminary, and so this was,
I don't know, eight years
before I started identifying
as trans publicly.
I was in seminary,
and one of my, colleagues was doing
their master's thesis on non-binary
liberation theology
or gender queer liberation theology. And
at one point, and I, I'm I'm
identifying as queer at this point,
you know, as publicly as I can.
And they they said to me at one point,
I think,
I think you're gender queer,
and I don't know if I like, literally
shoved them or just in my mind, ID
but I was like, I'm not your project.
Yeah.
And there was probably a square in there
somewhere. And
and then like two years later, I'm binding
and I have a closet full of,
you know, shirts and ties,
and I call them and I'm like,
you get to say at one time,
I told you so, you know, like and it
and so like the, the,
the gender and sexuality,
really feel hand in glove.
I always felt,
you know, awkward in my own body.
Again, some of that was growing up
in, like, a diet culture and,
some of that was growing up in this, like,
very traditional.
Like I remember saying,
I truly believe God
has called me to be a wife and a mother
because that was the line.
And if like, no boy is interested in me,
then and if
I'm not and if I'm not interested in boys,
I have to trust that God is going to
somehow make something happen.
And so I have to believe
that this is God's call in my life,
and somehow it's going to happen.
Turns out like my wife
calls me her husband.
And so like, I'm a really great love that
I'm her. I'm her husband.
And I've gotten to do ministry
with kids and camp stuff with kids
and get getting
to be sort of that parental or like third,
person in a, in a kid's life
and be able to speak to them and say,
you know, like you might feel weird
and, and I might be the first person
you've met who's kind of
in the middle of some genders,
but I'm not going to be the only one.
And so I've gotten to love on
all these kids
and be formative in their lives
without actually having to be a parent.
And that's like
the best gift of my life.
So, so I
so I have a question for you. Yes.
You know, some of our viewers
might not understand what queer queer
is like a reclaimed anti-gay slur.
And, you know, some people do I use it.
Do I not use it?
What the hell do I do with queer?
But can you explain to the audience
what queer means to you?
Sure. Sure. Yeah. Just as far as, like.
I like the word queer
because it means something.
It means different.
It means, special.
It means, maybe even a little bit,
like I have a mystery to it.
I like the in defined ness of queer.
I like that it encompasses
both my sexuality and my gender.
I never really like the word lesbian.
I like the word dike.
I like the way it sounds.
And in my mouth,
I like the hardness of it.
I like the K in there.
I used to like dike, too, by the way.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
And you and, you know, when people say it
in a way that is a slur like queer and,
you know,
when people say it in a way that, like,
they want to affirm you.
Yeah. Different energy. Totally. Yeah.
For a while, I identified as a lesbian
because I had no idea.
You know,
just like a little
a little more butch than than a lesbian.
Yeah. Yeah, that's that was on my.
That was on my early dating profiles.
Yeah.
And, you know,
we're all trying to figure it out.
Love that. Yeah. Thank you. Love that.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Past a long time.
Yeah. Anybody tell. Your friends.
But, So queer for me, like, I,
I would also if I needed to, like, define
it more.
Would call myself a sapphic queer.
Even though I'm assigned female at birth,
I don't identify with the word woman
or girl at all.
I feel like a distance or an other thing
like that word is not me.
And so.
But I am only interested in women.
And that's where that word,
that's where sapphic would come into that.
But I like.
But yeah. You.
But do you identify with being a man?
No. Okay.
Yeah I, I mean,
both of those feel really foreign to me.
Right now they're,
I feel like there's a right way
and a wrong way to misgender me.
Like you call me ma'am.
No, you call me miss better.
I feel that way because.
Yeah, because me, I'm in command implies
I'm old. Yeah.
But like a sir is is best.
Because there's no, like,
if we're in professional spaces
and you know,
me, like, Reverend is perfect
because Reverend is not gendered.
The guy at, the food truck
that I go to for lunch sometimes
couldn't remember what my title was
and was just like, at, Your Holiness.
And I was like, you're not wrong,
but I think I'll take it.
That's great. Yeah.
That's so funny.
And again, not gender.
Not gender, not gendered.
But have you all, like,
when did you know that
you wanted to be involved in ministry?
I mean, has always been a part of you.
So I grew up going to Christian schools.
I've never been to public school,
like so K12
Christian school, Christian college,
and then seminary.
And, always had leadership skills.
Always had really good Bible knowledge.
I mean, anything worth doing
is worth doing, like, a lot, right?
And because of where I grew up,
the Christian school was as is, as big
as a public school.
Like, it's just,
culturally a thing you do.
So, I probably gave
my first sermon in chapel
because we had chapel three times a week.
My senior year of high school.
Oh, wow. Yeah.
And, came home to my mom,
and her first reaction was.
Oh, and you decided to wear your hair
like that?
That's typical mom response.
Yeah, I was in pigtails at the time.
And I, when I was in college,
I didn't really know what to do.
My aunt told me
that getting a communications degree
was going to be a good idea,
because that's where the world was moving.
I graduated college in 2003.
Great economic
time to graduate from college.
But I ended up with, with a degree in
communications, emphasis
and marketing
and a, an English to a double major
and a minor in philosophy,
which means I was underqualified
or overqualified for everything,
like two broad to do anything specific.
And so for two years,
I did summer camp and substitute teaching,
trying to figure my stuff out.
And then I went to seminary because the
the weekend I graduated from college,
I went on a retreat to upstate New York,
and that was all 20 somethings
and pastors.
And I gave a meditation
as part of that retreat.
And one of the minister said, you know,
with your skill set and your background
and what I
what you just did there in chapel,
I think
you'd be really great for the ministry.
And I said, I don't have it together
enough to be a pastor.
And she goes,
you don't know a lot of pastors, do you?
You know, implying
that none of us have that right.
And I mean, in any business. Right?
Like no one.
We're all just kind of pretending
to be something.
That's right.
And so I let that had a simmer
for a couple of years, like plan
A was to be Mad Men, and, I was
I was going to teach.
I applied to get my, my MFA,
MFA, master's of Fine Arts and poetry,
and I was going to become a
into academia and even in seminary,
I thought I was going to be an academic.
And then,
turns out I'm kind of okay at preaching.
I won the preaching prize.
My my my my, last year seminary.
And I had given this this sermon in class
in my preaching class,
and I just felt like it fell flat.
Like when you're talking in
front of a group of people,
you get sort of a feedback loop.
And I just felt like
I didn't have it at all.
And my preaching and I told my preaching
professor I was like, I just want.
And and she looks at me five foot
nothing African-American, a woman
with a gravitas that only she could hold.
And she looks me in the eyes and says,
that was not my assessment.
And like, okay.
And like that.
Then she she was telling me
in that moment, like, I know who you are
and know that you have something
to say, even, even in this room.
And so,
I, I had an internship waiting for me
in upstate New York
when I graduated seminary,
and from there up
I have now been ordained for,
it'll be 13 years, January. Wow.
And, there's nothing I'm better at.
I love, I love preaching,
I love the pastoral care part.
I love working with people and sort of
these really thin places in their lives.
Funeral sickness, hospitals
and also the celebrations, baptisms,
weddings,
and being cancer free, like those,
those sort of milestones
and then like kids in church
and trying to be the pastor, I needed,
when I was a kid to show up in this body
and in the space.
And I know I'm a pretty significant visual
indicator when someone walks in the door
and they see me at the front of the room
to know what kind of community
we're trying to cultivate,
and I and I carry that in my body.
And I've had to get comfortable
with with knowing that I'm that indicator.
And it's,
it's a great privilege to I.
Love I love you, I love you,
I love you, really.
And I'm thinking to myself,
you're talking.
I'm like,
maybe I need to go to that church.
You know, we had Reverend Aaron Miller
on the show, and I, I was I'm always
curious to know if you had an actual
calling to this, like, was there a moment.
Where like this cloud.
Was over and stuff like that.
Can you, did you did you not I mean, can
you talk a little bit about that.
Yeah.
I mean it's a little woo like
I again like in,
in high school you know part of a youth
group, always a part of a youth group.
And a big part of youth group
retreats is solo time
where you, like, go out into nature
and you just sort of, like,
sit and wait for God to,
like, talk to you.
And, we were at this camp in the off
season, and I was doing my solo time.
And, as I'm sitting
and trying to, like,
listen for the voice of God,
a baby comes and starts
walking on my lips.
I'm just sitting like, real, real still.
And I really felt like in that moment,
like that was a thing.
They didn't know what that thing was like.
It felt really special.
And then looking back,
I really think that
that was the Holy Spirit sort of ordaining
my mouth, you know, sort of this,
this ministry that I have that is all
about cooperation and creating something
sweet and beautiful and building,
you know, useful things together.
So that's why I have a b.
Oh, there you go.
Tattooed on my arm.
And, so that that again.
But in retrospect, like that
is the meaning I made in that moment.
But as for like, a distinct call.
So many things,
you know, fell and fell into place.
There was a time in
in which I left the church, and
there was a time in which
I was really suicidal.
There are times in which,
I didn't know if there was
room for me and God's plan.
And so, like, I don't I don't really know
what I believe about,
like, God having designed everything
and we're all just,
like, being tugged along on the path
that was laid out for us.
I don't I don't think
I really believe that, but I do think that
certain individuals
and moments and books and experiences
kind of kind of fell into place.
Things I tripped over
to sort of bring me to,
to where I am
and in the theology that I have
and the and the love that I have
for this work and the hope that I have
for this institution.
Like the church is busted and the church
can be a place of deep, deep trauma.
And I'm not quite ready to give up on it.
And I don't know why.
Like looking at my my interactions
with the church of my
youth, like you would have think it
would have been like two middle fingers.
Bye. See? Hail Satan. But like. Yeah,
but for some reason I came out of it
with an unshakable knowledge
that God loved me just the way I am.
And God in the church
are different things.
And so how do I, as a person in this time
and in this place and in this body
and with these gifts
like help folks reconcile like you,
like the church can be something you need.
You need a community.
You need people who will support you.
Bring your casserole
when your grandma dies,
who will show up with you to protests,
who will,
align their values with your values
and try to make a difference,
and a place where you can enact ritual.
And I feel seen like we we
we like shake hands on a Sunday morning.
And that might be the only time
a person gets touched in their whole week,
or someone looks them in the eye, right?
Yeah. So
have community.
Wherever it is.
I think
church can be a really good option.
You know, I love when you said
that you want to be the pastor,
the people that you needed
and didn't have.
And I remember I struggled a lot with my,
my, religion and my spirituality.
And I started going to United Church
on the grain because my ex-girlfriend
said, we we need to do something.
And I want to go back to church.
I was like, okay, I'll just go.
And, it was, Reverend,
what the hell was his name?
John Gage.
I know John.
And he went like this, and he had a tattoo
of a cross on his forearm, and I'm like,
oh my God, he's tattooed
like I was raised in a Catholic church.
And he was such a super cool guy.
And I said, you know,
there might be a space for me here
because I never felt like you did that.
I really had a space
in the Catholic space. Yeah.
You know, so I love that.
I love that like
like when I show up for kids, I want to
I want to be the person that I needed
when I was their age, but there was nobody
there as I really connect with that.
I love that, yeah.
And as Laverne Cox says, you know,
we get to be a possibility.
Models.
I don't need to be a role model.
I don't need people to be like me.
But I'm.
But I'm a possible
oh, I love there are possible futures.
With all that being said, yes.
Do you ever get tired like they do?
Ever. Right. Feel that you are.
You always have to be on sure.
Fortunately, I have cultivated a life
where my on is pretty close to my off.
There.
Doesn't take a lot of effort
for me to kind of shift into it.
There is there is sort of this,
this expectation of being the noble queer,
of needing to be benevolent
and forgiving and like, you know,
that's not my pronoun, but that's okay.
And,
I mean, again, being a pastor, right?
Being sort of soft
and not and not coming back with,
like, being, you know,
sometimes
I just want to be rude, to make a point.
And like, being
being on like I because of who I am.
I'm fun.
Uncle Riley,
you know, I'm sort of laid back and goofy.
And then I'm going to say something
super profound or insightful.
I'm still new to this community.
So I also have, the gift of being the
clueless outsider or the clueless new guy.
I was like, you know what?
If we do blah blah blah.
And like, last time they did that, it
crashed and burned.
But I don't know that.
So I get to
I get to bring in those other things and,
and when and when I'm in spaces
where I need to be,
like Reverend Riley,
I can be kind of relaxed
because I am done masking.
I'm done hiding.
I'm done being anything other than I am.
And when I get home,
I might be a little more snarky,
and I have a little more
of a potty mouth and like,
maybe be exhausted
from all the projections upon me.
But there's a way in
which I can hold that,
because I'm not also trying
to be something I'm not.
And when I came out fully
queer and genderqueer, I started doing
the best ministry of my life
because I wasn't also like,
oh my God, they're going to know
I'm going to lose my job.
They're going to.
As soon as I was in spaces where I knew
I was safe and I wasn't going to get fired
for who I was
and who I loved, I was able to just
really open
up and care for people
and care for the words
and care for the rituals and ways
that I could give my full energy to,
Have you ever been on the other side
of some, like,
pretty nasty, terrible individuals
where you you
you felt,
put down or.
So there was.
I mean, in the church world,
at least in the church worlds
that I've kind of moved in,
there is sort of the polite nastiness,
you know,
and I think, you know, friends of mine
who are people of color would,
would call this like the northern racism.
Like people will be, like,
just completely rude
to your face and smile about it.
Or the passive aggressive,
So a lot of that had happened
when people didn't know who I was.
And being in the room,
there were spaces in which,
a group of ministers trying to vote
on whether or not the, the church
big C, should issue
a formal apology to LGBTQ
plus individuals for the way
in which this particular denomination
had hurt them.
Right? Not the denomination.
You were now. Correct.
Okay.
And so, and so we're
in a meeting trying to decide
if our particular group
is going to sign on to that,
to that motion.
And the room was split
and it was, you know, on one and one hand,
we need to we need to put this to bed.
We need to stop talking about it.
On the other hand, like,
this is a part of our faith,
tradition, apology and repentance.
Sin and someone who claimed themselves
to be
an ally spoke against it.
And in my life and knew who I was
and knew who was in the room.
And like, I've
never been able
to have the same relationship with her.
Or you know, that same that same body.
A minister
and his congregation were leaving
because they, they saw the denomination
as Thelma and Louise heading off a cliff
with the ordination of, of, of gay
and lesbian people into the ministry.
And so we in good conscience can't stay.
And in that meeting,
like all that, we're going to miss you.
And we've loved you as a colleague.
And and thank you for all the things.
And, and I'm the preacher
for that meeting.
And so, you know, there have been spaces
that have been hostile
out of carelessness.
No one has ever spit on me.
No one has ever been like,
you know, you you, you know, crazy dike,
get out of the pulpit like,
no one has been directly nasty to me.
I'm also very charming and disarming.
Yes, you are absolutely.
You know, charming.
Almost as charming as I am.
Which is. Which is shocking. Shocking.
But I think that's a defense mechanism,
right?
Like like, you know, if it
if you if you fall in love with me,
even in these micro interactions, like,
you can't be mean to me.
I'm not going to be mean to this face
like that, you know?
You know, like, aren't I adorable?
And I'm going to make you like,
you know, so I, you know, there's
I, there's
an immense amount of privilege in that.
But I've been in a lot of spaces
that have talked about queer people
as the problem in ministry
or some sort of cancer for the church.
They not knowing that you were queer.
Or not, not caring who's in the room
and who that language hurts.
Right.
And but but those one on one interactions
of people being up in my face and nasty.
I have been blessed
not to have those circles.
Do you not think, though,
that it's possibly worse the other way?
Because these are people
that you think you know and you think
are supportive and allies of yours,
and then all of a sudden,
in that sort of passive aggressive way,
you're finding out
that they're not as opposed to
the person that comes straight to you.
Well, yeah.
And it sucks because it's
there's also particularly in the church,
there's this family kind, you know,
and body of Christ, we're family.
You know,
no one I'll clothe yourself in humility
and that neither free nor slave
nor junior Greek.
But we are all one in in the faith and
and then to turn around
and say, you're not you,
you're an abomination.
Hurts because it's we talk
we talk a big game,
but then all of a sudden
there's an asterix on that word all.
And like, I am not an asterix ministry.
There are no know.
Like there's no small print,
no exceptions.
Right.
And to feel and to have been
an exception.
You know,
I love being exceptional but there
it's it's a whole different thing.
And, it's painful.
It's really, really painful.
And why,
why queer people need to be visible
in all spaces because of those places
where those asterisks have been to show up
and just kick them out the window.
Would you be a person that would put an
X on a gender marker?
Typically?
That's a good question.
Yeah, that's a big question. When.
So I know
and I'm comfortable
when I need a binary gender when I don't.
Okay. And like it.
That doesn't hurt me.
To more of a safety thing.
I feel like when I go to the doctor,
it's important for my doctor
to know what my body is
and what screenings I might need.
And so I would put an F on that.
On that sex marker for gender,
I would put gender queer and most,
most doctors,
that I've interacted with have both
for legal documents
they all need to match.
Right.
And so, I mean, I haven't,
I hadn't, I haven't done the process
of changing all of my legal documents
to match my married name,
let alone a gender marker.
And a friend of mine who has an X
on their passport recently traveled.
And because that X is not recognized
internationally
in the same way,
it was incredibly dysphoric
to get, you know, from the border agents.
What do you mean, X?
What are you?
But it's not even recognized,
apparently, in this country.
Now. Right.
And again, like I for some people,
that is an incredibly validating
and important thing in their lives.
And that is and I respect that.
And I understand that for me
that is not that is not
on my list of things that I need to feel
who I.
That's where you talk about everybody's
journey is different, right?
Everybody needs different. Things.
It's not a one size fits all.
And whatever makes you feel
happy and whole, then that's great.
But it might not be what the other person
needs.
Yeah.
You know, like
you got a 20,000 trans people in a room.
That's a lot even for me. That's that's.
Yeah, that's a lot to say.
It does say a thousand.
Every one of them is going to need
something different to be happy and home.
They should be able to access it
with absolutely.
With no problem at all. Yeah.
You know, does non-binary fall
under the transgender category?
Yeah.
Would you say that you are trans.
Yeah I've started saying
transgender non-binary
recently and I don't know why.
That's just sort of started
falling out of my mouth.
But yeah.
So if, if transgender is an umbrella,
underneath that umbrella would be like
gender queer, non-binary, a gender
two-spirit, A trans male.
Trans female. Yep.
Or mask or femme, you know. Yeah.
And so
I think there's a
there's an incredible power right now
to verbally saying I am transgender.
I also know that my experience is like,
I'm not trying to be a man.
I'm not trying to be a woman.
I'm just trying to be Riley.
And so non-binary
or gender queer fits the best.
I think,
gender queer more
because non-binary sort of assumes
a fluidity between femme and masculine
that I don't embody.
Okay.
Like you're you're never going to see me
in a dress, right?
Unless I'm in drag,
which I don't intend on undoing.
I was like,
I didn't know that was a thing.
That's not a thing I don't like.
You know, I do. I do have a drag name.
Should that ever happen.
Just just understand. Okay.
But so so I think non-binary
implies a fluidity that I don't have.
So trans trans mask, trans masculine,
gender queer
because I'm sort of queering masculinity
in some ways.
Queering femininity in some ways,
fits best.
But, right now,
I think politically.
Aligning myself
with the transgender community
is really important
and feels right for me.
So saying non-binary, transgender
or transgender non-binary
like feels like the formal.
Yeah, because.
If you didn't say them together,
most people think transgender is binary,
like you have to be one or the other.
So I love how you say
transgender. Non-binary.
Yeah. Because people will. Yeah. Well,
well understand that.
Yeah.
I just want to I know
this might be off topic, but you know me.
Let's talk about drag names.
Isn't that your preferred?
Isn't the name of your first pet
and the first street you lived on?
Isn't that the way it goes?
Yeah, I think that is that is the.
So that would be Go ahead.
That would be Bobby, even royalty.
Okay. My name is Charlie Shortland.
What's yours?
Are you talking about?
When I was a child, my my,
I remember we had so many pets.
Here it goes.
Sarah being the fun one crowd. Oh, sorry.
She let me give her that for this,
I wasn't.
I have to think about this on on her.
It's not on her question list.
You went off topic. Got.
But I just love that.
But if I. But I think.
But for real though, if I ever did drag
my, my drag name would be Dutch treat
because I'm half Dutch.
And your treat and. I'm a treat.
I love it.
You love it.
Let's talk about the pronouns. They them.
Oh, well,
I mean, you want to get people riled up.
Oh, every time I try. To talk about them.
Yeah.
What do you think about that?
When I think about you, Riley.
And I see it in Cameron as well.
And you two, Tony, is.
You don't take things to heart.
You are at the point
where you're like, yeah,
you know, if you want to use them, great.
If you can, that would be great.
But I think right now
in my congregation, First
Congregational Church,
Gilford on the green, it's amazing to him.
The, the way in which
right now is, is, is the time
to get our pronouns right
and to get they them right.
If you're going to,
if you want to be an ally,
if you want us to call you an ally,
the best thing you can do
is not wear a t shirt
or a pin or a tote bag.
Although those things are helpful.
But for you to to really nail it,
will show me
that you have given some care to that.
And one of the things that I've decided
that I need to do right now is to stop
letting people get away with it and to say
and to stand up for myself because I'm
I'm more interested in being polite than I
am, and people respecting me
and like, that's got to stop.
Absolutely.
Cuz look where it got us.
Right? So,
everybody has a pronoun.
A pronoun isn't a scary thing.
It's a part of speech.
We use them all the time.
Except for Elmo.
Have you ever noticed
Elmo doesn't use personal pronouns?
I know that maybe I should just be.
No, like Elmo.
Elmo doesn't use I.
Because he always says
Elmo goes off in the third.
Correct?
So like,
maybe we all need to take a little,
you know, Sesame Street detour, but I, I,
I mean, in a lot of ways, I listen.
I wouldn't mind, I wouldn't mind, but
but when you said like,
well, I'm lighthearted about it, I'm not.
I might use him pronouns.
If you can't respect my pronouns and you
can't, I can't have you in my my bubble.
No, I don't mean you're lighthearted.
I mean you're not, said the.
And sometimes I say sometimes.
Most of the time.
I believe the problem is
when you have people on social media,
there's a particular person
I'm thinking about who
just screams and yells at people
when they use the wrong pronoun,
even though they're at a restaurant
and the person is unsure
which pronoun to use, and that kind of,
that kind of
rhetoric, unfortunately, is
what people will immediately say.
They'll immediately go.
They won't go to the Tonys or the rallies
that are like kind about it.
They will go to
the people that just go off on you
if you're using the wrong pronoun.
And I and I respect that reaction.
There is there is a way in which
this rhetoric about
erasure of trans
and non-binary identities.
I understand that rage.
I totally get it.
Again, like I, I would never
because my mama raised me right.
But to my own detriment sometimes.
Right.
And you call me sir.
Great.
When my wife and I go out to dinner
it's ladies can I get you anything else.
And I just want to scream.
What about trigger.
Trigger 82.
You trigger trigger a. Trigger like what?
But like sir is okay for you.
So so so you're definitely
more comfortable with the masculine.
Yeah, I am Okay.
My God, you just triggered me so much.
I remember when I first started.
Like, I would hate that when I was off
with my girlfriend.
You know, if we went out to breakfast
and they said, hey, ladies, it would.
My whole day. Yeah. Was ruined.
It just, I don't know, there's a feeling
it's like, no, no you don't.
That's not
I never corrected anybody. Nope.
Because there's a shame in that too.
Right.
And I, I recently read something
and I can't remember on what social media
platform it was,
but it was my invitation for you
that I extend to you, telling you
that what my pronouns are
and what my name is, is an invitation
into relationship with me.
I'm inviting you to see me for who I am.
The waitress at Ihop doesn't need that.
Yeah, that is a micro interaction
and she is doing the best job she can,
and lord knows she's not getting paid
enough to deal with my bullshit.
So like
and not to saying that standing up
for yourself is yes, but she's I.
I'm not going to vomit
all of my rage onto this this this person
who is low stakes not going to have a long
lifelong relationship with.
Right.
So if, if if I am correcting you
and want you to get it
right
that I am investing in our relationship,
The community at your church, for example,
should be getting it
right at this point.
Yeah, they're they they are
trying really hard and a lot of them do.
Okay.
Right now we have a we have an intern
from Yale, Dib,
that's also, a non-binary person.
And so we, like, help each other out
and, like,
correct people on each other's behalf,
which is really
I recommend it very much to have some
someone else do the correcting for.
Yeah.
And I have to agree like,
you know, it's not an option.
It's not an option
to call me anything else.
But what I want to be reference to,
I'm telling you,
it's just like,
you know what you use, what pronouns?
Sarah. She her, she, her.
So if we were sitting here and you came in
and I said to Riley,
can you have him, sit over there
because we're setting up the equipment.
And you looked at me.
You're like, she her.
Yeah, yeah. Okay.
But can you have him sit there
because they're going to
totally be in the way
if if he doesn't move over there,
how safe and comfortable
would you feel in the space?
How much you would
you feel like you belong here?
Are you being respected
because that happens to trans people
and non-binary people all the time?
Sometimes some people, every time
they have an interaction with somebody.
Yeah.
I'm telling you how I identify respect it.
That's that's all.
I mean, it's not rocket science.
Yeah.
And there's not
there's not great gender neutrals.
So at the gala
the other night when I gave some remarks,
I addressed the room as like a steamed
guest or like a steamed all
and in
and I
that was a conscious choice
because what I wanted
to come out of my mouth was,
ladies and gentlemen.
Yeah.
And I knew that we had more than ladies
and gentlemen in the room
and in my congregation.
I will say, beloved, I will call the room
beloved, as opposed to,
you know, men and women are like family
of God about.
Inclusive, inclusive.
You know, it's wonderful.
And it takes
it takes a second to reorient.
But the people in the room
who need to hear that we don't use
masculine pronouns for God,
who need to hear that we're using gender
inclusive language
will ping it and go, oh,
this community's done
a little work around this,
and those who don't need to hear it,
who are on the binary, who don't have
issues with God being a boy, like
they won't even notice the difference.
True.
And and so like that little intentionality
does so much for folks
who are starving to be included,
or at least not excluded.
Just with language.
I love it because that's the truth.
Like, we can't worry about the people
who don't need to hear that message.
We need to focus on the people
who do need to hear that message
that everybody's belong.
Everybody belongs in this space.
Because if you don't feel like you belong
somewhere,
you're not going to keep going back.
And those are the people
who most likely need to be in that space,
or the people who are a lot of trans
and non-binary people isolate, you know.
Right. There are plenty.
There are plenty of spaces
for heterosexual, cisgendered people.
You know,
there are three churches on the Guilford
Green.
And, you know,
there are plenty of spaces, but
we want to cultivate a space
where folks feel comfortable.
I remember last year when Guilford
put up the pride flag for the first time,
and I remember taking a picture of it.
And I think I've said this to you
before, both of you probably,
and sending it to Cameron,
who wasn't there to be able to see it.
And I said, I,
I keep thinking that
this would have been wonderful
to you to see as you were growing up,
just that kind of visibility.
And he said it worked, really would have.
And I remember
talking to somebody about it and I said
it shouldn't bother a person
that this flag is up, that you don't even
really have to look at it,
but it means the world to somebody
who is part of that LGBTQ community,
because it just shows a bit of,
that they're seeing that they're included,
that they're loved, that they're wanted.
I did want to go back to something
that you had just said, though, because
it was, oh, I think there's four churches
I don't want to keep, keep adding fresh.
Yes, because I was like.
Imagine somebody getting up for not.
I definitely don't
I. Don't want yeah. No, no.
Great catch. Great catch. Yes.
Yes I want to recognize. Yes, yes.
We have all. Four of the house
houses of worship. Yes.
And it's a very small it's a small green.
And although I do, I do believe
it is the largest green in Connecticut.
No way. Actually, I think you're right.
It's a larger than New Haven.
This is not the point
that we're talking about.
We don't. You can fact check us later
on the shoreline.
Maybe it's a town of.
Between Guilford and Branford,
I don't. Know.
Yeah. Haha.
Thank you for being here.
Is there anything else that you like?
I do think that you are a great image
for these young kids.
Thank you.
And, is there anything that if you did,
you could would like to say to somebody
who's struggling with belonging?
We only have a few minutes.
Riley. Don't go, you know.
Yeah, because I have a question to leave.
Oh, okay.
It's cliche, but it works.
But in a lot of ways, it gets better.
And there are spaces
where
you will feel
such a deep sense of belonging.
There are spaces being curated for you
right now.
There are people who want to love you
and want to see your success
and your happiness and your thriving.
And if that is not
where you're at right now,
you part of that is wait and find.
Find your people, find your, find your,
your besties, your supporters,
whether that's online or on a on a team or
whatever.
But the where there is
the world is so big
and when we see our worlds is small
and see our possibilities as limited,
that is when we start to despair.
And so any way that you can safely
find spaces
to be yourself, to give yourself
the little injection of hope that you need
until you have the, the autonomy
and the and the money to
to do whatever you want to do,
to build to to choose your own family,
to choose your course of life.
It's hard to do both.
Like hang on because.
Because there's there's more.
Yeah.
That's beautiful.
So when you came into the space
here. Yeah.
The first thing I noticed
was your t shirt.
Yeah. And it made me smile.
Yeah.
And I think today I found
I found joy in your t shirt.
Oh. Thank you.
And I'm probably going to go Google it
and buy one.
But anyway, what brings you joy?
I know it's
been it's a tough time right now.
And I would love to hear
what brings you joy.
Yeah.
So I am And neither of you know this,
I don't think, but I,
I have this little personal project
right now, that I refer to as Joy Scouts
because I was was never
I was never a scout,
because I grew up in a place where
anything secular, you had a crappier
Christian version of it.
So I had, like,
Jesus, Girl Scouts kind of,
where I earned badges in, like, microwave
cooking and flower arranging.
So, so now,
because I've got a little bit of money,
and access to some things, I,
I take classes here and there on things.
So what I've done for Joy Scouts,
I've done a pottery class.
I've done, write your own solo show,
like acting, writing class.
And right now
I'm in a blacksmithing class.
I, I've seen them on Facebook. Yes.
And I am.
So at the end of the month,
I will have made a knife.
And I didn't fire.
Do you watch. It?
I of course.
God, I love that show. Sorry. Plugging.
Yeah, yeah.
So things that give me joy are like
I learning.
I'm a big, reader.
I do a lot of audiobooks
because that way I can also like,
do laundry while I'm reading.
And, I, my wife
and I refer to it as my hot boy walk.
Go for a walk around my neighborhood.
Yeah. And, victory in your walk.
That's awesome.
When you, when you do, glassblowing,
let me know.
I, I took a class, I loved it.
I took a class at, Manchester
Hot Glass in Vermont.
Really?
And it was a
as a birthday gift for my wife.
And so, it is it is hard.
Yeah. It's not an easy thing.
No, I mean, I made a Christmas ornament.
That was all they let us do.
But I would love to get into that more.
So let me know if you ever want to.
Yeah. Do a class. I'll do it with you.
Yeah. Awesome. Sounds good. Tony.
All right.
Well, I thank you so. Much, my honor.
Thank you for
thank you for the work that you both do.
And, the, the friends and visibility
that you raise up.
And, I appreciate you. So.
Give another plug for the church.
Yeah.
First Congregational Church,
Gilford, Connecticut,
on the green services at 830 and 10 a.m.
830. Yeah.
That's it. Everyone.
Thank you again for joining us.
We'll see you next time.
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